But it strikes me that the next sentence should be: "...at which time they will be given more self-government."  That has always been my goal.  And I think the next question is, "How much self-government? What is the next step?"

The Island was never meant to be ruled, it was meant to be managed by a specialist, a professional þ and that's what the Island needs.  I feel the [RIOC] Board should consist of a number of elected residents, plus a representative from State Housing, and somebody from the Bureau of the Budget.

The State has to make sure that the Island stays viable, that any new housing be attractive and desirable.

My family has lived here almost twenty years.  We still like it very much.  But if things change in a direction we find unacceptable we would certainly consider leaving.  Everyone has problems, but this is a "New Town" founded to be multi-cultural, multi-economic, diverse, and safe.  My feeling has always been that if people are safe they have the greatest chance of getting along, regardless of what their diversities are.  And fortunately, the last two Public Safety directors have been outstanding.  I think Peter Norwood is exceptional.

So, we have the geography, we have the security, we have the diversity.

But there seems to be some problem as to our direction.  I really think this Island should become more self-governing, and the key to it is Pete Grannis.  In my view, he is a brilliant legislator, and he has a lot of clout.  He wrote the legislation that we operate under, [and] I would like to think that we could prevail upon Pete Grannis to rewrite the legislation in view of the fact that we are now [financially] self-sufficient. 

There is no reason why there should be [the kind of] confrontation [that presently exists between the Roosevelt Island Operating Corporation (RIOC) and the Roosevelt Island Residents Association (RIRA)].  It was never meant to be that way.  Some say it's this particular head of RIOC that's causing the problem.  I don't know.  But it's not in our citizens' best interest for RIRA and RIOC to be at odds.  That should be remedied.

The thing that differentiates us from other small villages is the shortage of volunteerism.  In other communities there are people who are raising money, doing volunteer work, who are on neighborhood watch þ things we haven't been able to develop here.  Though the [U.N.] Secretary-General lived here, and there are many members of the UN delegations living here, they tend not to be involved in community activities.  That's one of the problems with having non-citizens living in your community.

As yet, we don't take enough into our hands.  Maybe the reason for that is that we are politically dependent upon whomever the Governor sends here to manage the Island.  We've never had a majority of Island residents who make the decisions for us.  But when the President [of RIOC] has been agreeable to sharing a good deal of the information, resident members of the RIOC Board have acted responsibly.  Three or four years ago, knowing that we had to raise $600,000, we raised the fare on the bus, raised the parking fees, put parking meters on the streets, and e raised the Tram fare.

Contrast that with the recent six-percent raise in Motorgate rates.  We didn't have anything to say about it.  In the past, we were able to discuss all the ramifications of the finances of the Island with the President, and have input on it.  That was healthy.

I don't envy Dr.  Blue.  He's in the middle of a transition period.  The Island was always dependent on the State for its operational funds þ at one point $2.4 million.  Now that we've worked that down to zero, his mission is to operate on as low a budget as possible.  His objective, in my view, is economic.  I feel the objective should be quality of life, and now that we have reached breakeven on the budget, that's what we ought to concentrate on.

I disagreed with him entirely on the need to cut the third shift out of the tram.  We've gotten three different opinions as to how much it would save.  The controller says it will save about $200,000; Intefac [the Tramway operator] says it will save about $400,000, but included in that is the Console Operator [already eliminated].  Dr.  Blue seems to think that it's more like $700,000.  We really don't know the number, but in any event, if we were self-sufficient and if we were self-governing, then Island residents would have to make a decision: which aspects of government do we want to subsidize þ something that every community has as its option.  Maybe we want to subsidize the tram and raise the money another way.  I think it's the sort of thing that the residents should have the decision-making ability to do.

I think the timing couldn't be better.  I think now is the [time for] transition.  We're approaching our twentieth anniversary.  I think we're going to celebrate it this October.  And I think that having accomplished what nobody expected us to, to become self-sufficient, it's probably worthy to sit down with Pete Grannis again and see if we can't redraft the legislation and change how Roosevelt Island is managed.

JB: Who appointed you?

WW: I was appointed by Gov.  Cuomo, back in þ85.  Ronnie [Vass] and I were the first appointees, and we attended virtually every meeting of RIOC from 1985 on.

JB: There was also a provision for the President of RIRA to serve.

WW: Absolutely, and I felt bad that two Presidents of RIRA didn't serve, although David Kraut served for two of them, Nneka Pope and Patrick Stewart, and David is a very accomplished person.

But I would have liked to see the RIRA President or some designee serve automatically.  There's no reason why we couldn't have some sort of an election in which the President and/or Resident Member of the Board were elected.  I think that would have been an equally acceptable notion.  And up until recently RIRA has been very helpful in the decision-making of the President of RIOC.

I think the whole issue of public-purpose payments is a good example.  Francois [Richards, former RIRA President] was a marvelous negotiator.  She is a fine lawyer and banker and she negotiated with [DHCR Commissioner] Rick Higgins an essential aspect of public-purpose payments, for social services.

She [realized] we would ultimately run into trouble with our youngsters having no place to go.  She extracted from Rick Higgins a promise that a million dollars would be set aside, with the interest to pay for social services.  Higgins, also anticipating the increase in population of young adults, promised that the State would find a way to allocate $50,000 a year from Southtown, when it was built, to add to the interest from that original million dollars in order to fund some social services.

I think we have done pretty well with public-purpose payments with the advice of RIRA and RICO.  I've insisted on RIOC control, [because] the Directors have a fiduciary responsibility, but certainly we want to seek the advice and approval from RIRA and RICO, and we did, every time.

JB: You said sometimes you had to do things that you didn't aree with but you were a representative of the Governor or of the RIOC President...

WW: That's [a matter] of style and philosophy, and it gets back to the budget hearing we held.  I felt that Dr.  Blue was sent here to eliminate the State subsidy, and my objective has always been self-governance, and I saw [elimination of the State subsidy] as the opportunity to ask for more self-government.

To some extent, Dr.  Blue may have used some of the [budgetary] cushion that Jean Lerman had built up...  but I still like his direction and I felt he should be supported.  I felt that amity was going to get us further than confrontation, and I think that's been borne out.  I am not happy about the [troubled] relationship between the RIRA President and the RIOC President.  If you find you can compromise and that the ultimate goal is not sacrificed, then it's worthy to say "I can't win it all."  Dr.  Blue put us on a track that I wanted to keep going on þ economic independence that would enable us to demand self-governance, and make our own decisions on expenditures.

If the community wanted three shifts, or even four, on the Tram, it was a quality of life issue and much more important to me than being obdurate or fighting to the very end.  I saw that Dr.  Blue could get us closer to that goal, put us on the path to that goal, and I wanted to work with him, and still want to work with him, to get us there.

JB: Do you see Dr.  Blue's secrecy and unresponsiveness as mainly the cause of his problems here?

WW: Well, you're assuming that he has problems.

JB: There's no doubt about that.

WW: OK.  But we don't know what his assignment was.  I have to presume his assignment from the Governor was to get rid of the subsidy.

That was not the mission of his predecessors.  His predecessors were more collegial, believed more in participatory government, and so the resident members of the Board had a good deal more involvement in day-to-day operations.

Dr.  Blue comes from a different direction, he comes with a different mission, and I don't think that he necessarily feels he has to justify, or involve as many people in his decision-making.  That's a matter of style, and the only thing that could upset his management would be if he were to do something without appropriate consultation that was extremely unpopular on the Island.

For example, I disagree with getting rid of the third shift [on the Tram].  I think we have a higher percentage of riders on the Tram in our middle-of-the-night period than the subways do, and the subways run all night.  We subsidize our Tram less than any other form of public conveyance þ buses, trolleys, trains, whatever.

Many women on the Island will not travel the subway at night.  They do not feel safe, and I don't blame them.  Even Otis Jones, the Deputy Commissioner [DHCR], says that when you're down a hundred-some-odd feet, it takes too long for help to get to you.  It's too easy for a miscreant to isolate you.

The disabled have a tough enough time getting on our subway cars, and they could never get to where they're going if the Tram shuts down.

It just seems to me that it doesn't make sense to cut Tram hours, because then the Island is not as attractive a destination, and it may cause problems for people on the Island, or for future residents or tennis players, many of whom were promised a ride on the Tram late at night.

The builders of Southtown may find that they won't be able to rent as easily without a late-night Tram.  If people are secure, however diverse, they tend to get along.

DL: You said earlier that if things change in a direction you consider unacceptable, you will leave.  Do you have any hint of that?

WW: Right now, I think Peter Norwood is doing a splendid job.  I do not feel menaced.  My wife does not feel menaced.  But Peter serves at the pleasure of the President of RIOC.  If Dr.  Blue were told by theGovernor that there's a constabulary officer somewhere in the State who needs a job, and is more politically connected and that we ought to let go of Peter Norwood, and hire that person, he has the authority to do it, with approval of the Board.  I'm not saying Peter is the only man in the world, but we carefully chose him because of his experience in this sort of a community, and if we didn't have a person as sensitive to the kinds of things that happen on an Island like ours, we could be in trouble.

Roosevelt Island is a unique experiment.  It's a "New Town," but it's within New York City.  You won't find anything like it anywhere in this country.  For it to fail would be the worst thing that could happen for either Dr.  Blue or the Governor.  That would be a catastrophe.  If we could not keep a congenial, convivial, workable community here, where we don't have crime problems that you find in many other communities, then shame on somebody.  This Island deserves to succeed.

Ours could be a model community.  We've got incredible diversity, and we should be very, very careful that we do not lose the battle or the war, because that would certainly be a failure at the highest level in the State of New York.

DL: Do you feel that's in prospect, in any way?

WW: Not yet.  Not yet.

DL: Do you feel it's drifting in the wrong direction in some way?

WW: I think it's plateaued.  It was doing well...  I think we must be careful in the way we choose [new residents]...  I've always been of the feeling that living on Roosevelt Island is a privilege, and we ought to be able to throw criminals right off the Island.  If you act socially improperly, you do not deserve to live here.  And that's where I think self-government would help us.  This social experiment deserves to succeed and so far I must say that Peter Norwood has certainly done his best to make it succeed.

DL: How about Dr.  Blue?

WW: I think Dr.  Blue has the smarts to make it work.  He may have a mission that puts economic issues over quality of life issues, but having achieved the goal of self-sufficiency, I would hope that he would now turn his attention not to even greater economic savings, but to quality of life issues.

Now, if the present Resident Members are replaced with other esident Members who conceivably would be rubber stamps, that would not be good for a reconciliation of RIOC and RIRA.

DL: What do you identify as the root cause of that conflict?

WW: It may very well be that the Governor does not appreciate that after 20 years that a community like ours is more deserving of more self-governance.  I don't know why he's never been here.  I think if he knew the facts about the cross-section of the Island and the skills on the Island, and that it isn't costing the State any money... 

But when you've got a self-sufficient community and you've got a bunch of bright people, and they seem to have the same overall goal of getting the job done and living amicably and safety, there's no reason why you can't allow them to have self-governance.

DL: You said you didn't know what Dr.  Blue's assignment is, and therefore, to a large extent, his agenda.  Why is that?

WW: Well, he may still be feeling insecure, and with a job to do and with a boss that's told him to get the job done, I think he's trying to be responsive.  We don't always agree but I find him to be a most pleasant, agreeable man.  It may seem naive, but when I got my letter from the Governor Pataki, saying he was replacing me, I called Dr.  Blue, and I said "Jerry, I have great respect for you.  I have a good deal of confidence that you're going to do the right thing.  I just want you to know if there's any task or any job or anything that I can be helpful to you in, please don't hesitate to ask, because I like the town I live in and I want to do something," and he responded in kind.  I think that's the approach that will work, and if he calls on me, I'll be delighted to help, and if he doesn't call on me, well, that's both of our loss.

JB: What do you see as your major accomplishments as a Director?

WW: Well, I was the only professional engineer on the Board.  And so Barry Chafetz particularly would seek my advice on many issues.  We worked together on the redesign of Motorgate so that we could eliminate a guard at the booth.  I went to Palm Springs to look at their tram operation and came back with some recommendations to upgrade our Tram.

I was able to effect the purchase of buses that do not require an elevator for the disabled to get on the bus.  I worked with Alice Russo and Jonathan Sinagub where they wanted information on whether we should replace our steam power plant.  We invited a number of people to give us proposals on replacing it with a co-generation system.

I happen to know the people in the City street lighting department, so we were able to get some new and better street lights for the Island, and got the City to maintain them.

There are a number of ways you can interface with people and that's what Rosina Abramson, and Jean Lerman and Barry Chafetz would use me for.  I would attend many meetings where my technical expertise was useful.

JB: Has the current administration called on you for any of these services?

WW: Not specifically.  Peripherally, and as a member of a group, yes.  I was invited by Dr.  Blue to help with interview of potential developers of the co-gen plant.